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Virtis Novem: SO
quinnzap: LO
quinnzap: MIO
Virtis Novem: what happens to you when you die?
quinnzap: excuse me?
Virtis Novem: i'm probing your beliefs
Virtis Novem: not your briefs
Virtis Novem:
quinnzap: ay. akala ko naman you were asking about either wow or eve
quinnzap: i'm not entirely sure. evidently, when i die, my corporeal functions will cease and this body will decay.
Virtis Novem: not according to shaun of the dead!
quinnzap: ... or any zombie movie/story/game, true
quinnzap: i'm not sure what happens to the consciousness of this body, though. no single religion has given me substantive enough faith-based reason (since it's obviously no longer a question of empirical reason) to subscribe to a particular belief.
quinnzap: by upbringing default i'd tend to think in terms of the catholic dogma of heaven/purgatory/hell and the notion of the immortal soul, but that's more habit and sentimentality than actual assertive choice.
quinnzap: why do you ask?
Virtis Novem: adrienne and i used to visit my parents every weekend, and i would bring up all these pilosopo questions because i like thinking about them.  they've moved away and we don't talk about these things as often anymore
quinnzap: i see
quinnzap: well, you can always talk to me  it's not like this sort of discourse is alien to me (or to us).
Virtis Novem: other things we've talked about:  what is prejudice?  what is beauty?
Virtis Novem: is homosexuality genetic? -- which led to a genetics vs environment debate
quinnzap: the classic nature vs. nurture dichotomy, then
quinnzap: but wait
quinnzap: what do -you- think about death?
quinnzap: kasi, me, i believe that when i die, i'm just done. as in game over, done. what comes next, if something does come next, i'll have to figure out when i get there.
Virtis Novem: i think that's what i've always known but have been afraid to accept
Virtis Novem: just being game over done is very scary to me!
quinnzap: why does it scare you?
quinnzap: (actually, come to think of it, death seems to scare a lot of people)
Virtis Novem: it has always scared me.  to the point where when i'm driving alone at night, i'm afraid that the next driver that passes me will shoot me in the head.  too much hollywood and scary movies as a kid, i think.
Virtis Novem: i don't think i worry about hell (the biblical kind, or the what dreams may come kind).  i think the game over done concept is what bothers me
quinnzap: the fact that when that time comes, it's a no-negotiations closed door? a step you can't take back?
Virtis Novem: no, the fact that i just won't exist.  i realize that if this is the case, then i wouldn't be around to care, but i worry anyway
Virtis Novem: i don't understand it!
quinnzap: maybe it's the fear of something that is fully unknown to your experience thus far.
quinnzap: the fact that it's something beyond your ken, beyond even your most reasonable attempts at comprehension, at pegging it down in similarity or in difference to something you know.
Virtis Novem: there are other things that boggle my mind, such as how small we are in such a big universe, or the possibility that we are all similar to atoms in someone's (a higher being's?) body.  these things don't bother me!
Virtis Novem: maybe it's the mind-bogglingness plus the death that does it
Virtis Novem: you don't have a problem with game over dead?
quinnzap: i used to, but now the very thing that scares most people is what gives me the most comfort.
Virtis Novem: you'd prefer it over reincarnation or an afterlife?
quinnzap: ah, no, i didn't mean it that way.
Virtis Novem: (ano kaya, ito na pala yung afterlife natin)
quinnzap: (AHA, I THOUGHT THAT TOO ONCE!)
quinnzap: what i mean is that i'm okay with that climactic point of transition. of the death-act, so to speak.
quinnzap: as for what comes after, be it nothing, reincarnation, afterlife, jacking-out of a matrix-type setup and then assessing my Living Score before trying another Life scenario .... we'll see when i get there.
Virtis Novem: i think i'm okay with dying, too.  it's what comes afterward, or the lack thereof, or the not knowing, that scares me.
quinnzap: okay.
Virtis Novem: it doesn't seem to bother you
quinnzap: i don't see why it should, e.
quinnzap: i mean, it's not like i derive hope or joy or something positive out of it
Virtis Novem: me neither!  i wish i did!
Virtis Novem:
quinnzap: but i don't feel any compelling fear about it
quinnzap: i used to fear death because of the persistent religious doctrine that death marks the evaluation point, and then you get stuck with something depending on how you did.
quinnzap: when my thinking stepped around the framework of religions and looked in other directions, i lost the fear that came with the faith.
quinnzap: for many people, fear of death is fear of punishment, of the inability to say "ay teka wait lemme make up for that"
quinnzap: that was my fear before.
Virtis Novem: apparently, mine is just based on not knowing
quinnzap: brb, nature calls
Virtis Novem: did i ever mention this book to you?  http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0399142789/ref=sib_fs_top/103-0042468-1247850?ie=UTF8&p=S00L&checkSum=uDdfba9TTSVPTkfPbZeBxAI9UJbA0vaVbBQQlChHOLU%3D#reader-link
quinnzap: back
quinnzap: no, what's this?
quinnzap: erm
quinnzap: it won't let me in  i need an account.
Virtis Novem:
Virtis Novem: http://www.amazon.com/Conversations-God-Uncommon-Dialogue-Book/dp/0399142789/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product/103-0042468-1247850
quinnzap: oh hey
quinnzap: they're making a movie about this fellow, diba?
quinnzap: and about this series of books?
Virtis Novem: i didn't hear that
quinnzap: here you go: http://www.cwgthemovie.com/main.html
Virtis Novem: aba
quinnzap: i like their music
Virtis Novem: so you do know about these books
quinnzap: yep, sort of
quinnzap: have you read them?
Virtis Novem: i listened to books 1-3 on audio cd, and bought books 1-2 hardcover
Virtis Novem: we have one or two more of his on cd, too
quinnzap: i see
Virtis Novem: when i was involved with rowie balza, i wanted to be as catholic as their family was.  it felt good to me at the time to try to follow that faith.
Virtis Novem: we were living in california then.  when we visited my parents here in colorado, my mom had these audio books and i listened to them on the road trip back.  rowie had a plane ticket, so it was just me and the book.
Virtis Novem: it made me feel like the catholic religion never did.  i felt like a part of something bigger, like there was a God with a capital G, and we are all a part of It
quinnzap: yeah, funny how catholicism muddies the waters on that note.
quinnzap: go on.
Virtis Novem: yes it does.  everything is perfect until people get involved.
Virtis Novem: anyway, these books told me that it was okay to believe what i believed (which was not catholic).  it's okay to question things.  it's okay to not feel guilty about everything. 
Virtis Novem: one of the major concepts that it helped me think about was right vs wrong.  what's what, and who decides?  adrienne talked about this on a road trip once, too.
quinnzap: do the two of you see eye-to-eye on this note?
quinnzap: -these- notes
Virtis Novem: we are on the same page.  we agree on a lot of things, and are open to the exchange of ideas on the things we disagree on.
Virtis Novem: the book stated that right and wrong aren't absolute, and in fact don't exist on a universal scale.  they only exist on a human scale, and even on an individual scale.  our conversation on this led us to conclude that, almost like the oracle said, we're all here to define ourselves.  we're here to define what we are, and what is right and wrong for us, individually.
quinnzap: i concur. this rhetoric shows up in modern (as in panahon nina nietzsche, not contemporary) philosophy as well, and in critical literary theory.
Virtis Novem: it's the kind of thinking that would get you kicked out of don bosco!
Virtis Novem: a witch!  BURN HER!
Virtis Novem: she turned me into a newt!
quinnzap: on the contrary. it's the sort of thinking fr. eli would encourage, because it shows an awareness that has transcended simple rote religion and is ready for the higher echelons of religious debate.
Virtis Novem: oh really?  i wish i had known him then, or still knew him now.
quinnzap: it was the sort of thing that came up during sal terrae 4 and later on in that interschool media org we ran.
Virtis Novem: that makes me regret moving here, again
quinnzap: rote religion fails the aware mind kasi. there are nuances and arguments that catholic dogma can bring to bear that the comparatively "puny mortals" of elementary/secondary studentry never become aware of.
quinnzap: sometimes for the rest of their lives
quinnzap: o, baket?
Virtis Novem: yeah, some people never become aware of it, others choose to never become aware of it.
Virtis Novem: i just feel that i missed out on a lot of things by moving here.  while you and everyone else i left behind went on with the harsh yet fun high school and college experiences, i was dealing with a new school, new culture, new country.
quinnzap: most people don't have the choice, too. another problem with religion is that the more esoteric aspects don't have a trickle-down effect, such that the common people who level-up their awareness think that religion is puny and flimsy.
quinnzap: you've had experiences that none of us have had too, you know.
Virtis Novem: well, if and when the common people do level up their awareness, that's when they find what's right for them, be it their default religion or otherwise.  i think that's what the books did for me. 
quinnzap: yes, exactly
Virtis Novem: and i know i've had some unique experiences after leaving don bosco.  i think i would have preferred to have them at a much older age, like now. 
quinnzap: what's disappointing to me is that i feel there's much more to religion, and that if only they could reach out the same way this fellow did with his books, they would make more people content and happy.
Virtis Novem: that's the problem with religion: there are people involved.  and people inevitably mess things up.
Virtis Novem: politics: same thing.
Virtis Novem: relationships: same thing!
Virtis Novem:
quinnzap: erm
quinnzap: the relationship thing, medyo the people ARE the thing, so.
Virtis Novem: i had myra watch the davinci code, and we talked about it afterward.  i explained to her that the reason for the catholic uproar was that the author claimed the book to be fact.  however, the true problem was that enough stupid people on the planet believed what the author claimed.
quinnzap:
Virtis Novem: it's a good book and we loved the movie.  we think it inspired a lot of people to talk about faith and to question their beliefs.  but when enough people get involved, said people mess things up.
quinnzap: i only want to watch DVC for audrey tautou  to see how her performance differs from her role in amelie
quinnzap: faith? belief? what are those?
Virtis Novem:
quinnzap:
Virtis Novem: another example.  there are enough resources on this planet for everyone, that nobody needs to die of hunger, nobody should be illiterate.  but then people got involved and messed things up!
quinnzap: what's the assumption here, then? that people are stupid?
quinnzap: we're kinda stuck with the limitations and fallibilities of human behavior
Virtis Novem: "stupid" in a very broad sense.  i believe that human behavior is a product of your environment (nature vs nurture again, and i go with the latter).  i think that the most basic requirement for a better world is an education for everybody.
Virtis Novem: everyone would learn how to effectively communicate everyone else, which ideally would lead to compassion and understanding or at least tolerance.  no wars, suffering, or hunger.
Virtis Novem: *communiate with
Virtis Novem: bah
quinnzap: education for everybody assumes that there is an acceptable norm of education. what education, exactly? the same education that you and i got from don bosco? what about the education that the japanese get? the austrians? the africans? the chinese? the catholic? the muslim? the scientists? the environmentalists? the industrialists? what systems of thinking are implicit in each possible paradigm?
quinnzap: another angle of having education for everybody is the ironclad casting of everyone in specific mindsets. which may lead to new and more effective ways to wage war, to deal out suffering, to cause hunger.
quinnzap: flexibility of perception is a rare flower in the broad field of education.
Virtis Novem: i disagree.  that's what we already have today.
Virtis Novem: education doesn't have to be standardized to the point that everyone goes to a don bosco.  it does need to be available to everybody around the world so that we are all able to effectively communicate with everybody around the world.  we don't need to be the same.  we just need to be able to understand and accept, or at the very least tolerate,  our differences.  basic education provides this.
quinnzap: whose basic education? who decides what this "basic" is? what context does it come from?
quinnzap: i'm not saying education for everyone is a mistake. i'm questioning where it comes from.
Virtis Novem: you know, another topic i bring up to adrienne is: captain janeway and voyager are wrong.  being borg has a lot of advantages. 
quinnzap: i concur, it does have a lot of advantages. why else would they have spread so far, so wide, and so successfully?
Virtis Novem: i appreciate your asking the questions you're asking.  i apparently haven't thought about it to that extent!
quinnzap: i have issues with the notion that the borg eschew aesthetics and favor a mechanistic perception of efficiency and expansion, though.  they're more limited than they think. but then that may be a limitation in the conceptualization from the star trek writing pool, so.
quinnzap:  i'm glad you like the extended inquiry. most people don't like being made to think this far along, or this hard.
quinnzap: it's tantamount to insulting what they believe to be truth, e. and this flexibility of mind is, again, very rare. andami nating merong edukasyon, pero andaming walang flexibility.
Virtis Novem: i think those are the questions i tend to ask everyone else, which is how i got labelled pilosopo as a kid.
quinnzap: oh, me too!
quinnzap: and look, i ended up in comparative literature. the most pilosopo course of all next to philosophy mismo.
Virtis Novem:
Virtis Novem: what do you think then?  who decides what basic education is?
Virtis Novem: the borg have the answer.
quinnzap: i don't know. i don't think it's possible. the concept of basic education is a severly loaded one, e. it's the placement of an operating system in a young mind. an OS that will determine the kid's general path for the rest of his life. and the problem is, basic education is more than just what you get in a classroom. it's the entire context, the entire worldview that is wrapped around the student.
quinnzap: we could teach exactly the same classes in every nation, but i doubt the mongolians would see things the same way as the brazilians. and it's not the fault of basic ed. there's more to it, e.
quinnzap: and then with regard to the basic ed itself, look at our textbooks.
quinnzap: our basic textbooks are in american english. this automatically predisposes us to american sensibilities. the linguistic groundwork is the deepest anchor of ideology and paradigm.
quinnzap: same with our farmers in the provinces. they are at a disadvantage to appreciate the wired world because they simply have no words, no language with which to conceive of it. for many of these people, it's too late: even if you teach them the things that we as internet surfers know, they'll never understand it the way we do.
quinnzap: is the american perspective the correct basic ed/
quinnzap: ?
quinnzap: we return to conversations with god. the sense of right and wrong extends to the notion of truth and falsehood.
quinnzap: american education is no more true or false than taliban education. it's a matter of perspective.
quinnzap: there are people willing to die on both sides for the very basic tenets that were taught to them as children. love your land, love your people, love your beliefs. die for your beliefs.
quinnzap: so again, what happens to basic ed? this is what worries me about education for all, because as people have been getting smarter, "peace" has always only come to pass when one ideology wins out over another.
quinnzap: peace most commonly comes from homogeneity, not flexibility. people have come to terms with conflict by accepting each other's side, true, but then why are there so many weapons, still?
quinnzap: the nations may respect each others needs and paradigms, but what's with the weaponry among the "peace-loving" nations? where is this xenophobia rooted in?
quinnzap: say the weapons are there to protect us from "bad nations." nations that want to kill us, to rule us.
quinnzap: what are they really doing? simply fighting for what they believe.
quinnzap: just so happens that what they believe is leading to the deaths of people like us. by the same token, our beliefs are what are getting them killed too, in armed conflicts with the MILF and the NPA, with the conflicts in the middle east.
quinnzap: let's say we gave everyone basic american education. who's to say that this education won't be used by "the enemy" to further destroy america?
quinnzap: it's been portrayed many times in media, and i wouldn't be surprised if this were the reality: youngsters who lived and grew up in the states, learned the methods, learned the paradigms, went to the "other side" and found more effective ways to kill. the 9/11 massacre wasn't the result of idiocy or shooting in the dark.
quinnzap: the killers knew. and they got that knowledge from being aware of the american paradigms and systems.
Virtis Novem: i see two solutions.
quinnzap: KILL EVERYONE MUHAHAHAHA
Virtis Novem: well, one response and one solution. 
Virtis Novem: and they could possibly work together and form one idea.
Virtis Novem: the response is, what's so wrong with having one standard OS for every kid around the world?  you're right that peace most commonly comes from homogeneity.  would a sacrifice from our current generation be worth everlasting world peace?  were the bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki justified just because it ended the war?
quinnzap: (YAY STUPID CAPTIONING WORK DONE! sorry, go on)
Virtis Novem: and the solution is, "basic education" shouldn't be limited to classroom subjects like reading and writing.  basic education should include world subjects.  by world subjects, i do NOT mean "this is what we believe, that is what they believe".  i DO mean "this is what the human race believes".  at this point, it ties in to the first response.  we would need a single ideology (human rights for all, etc) to be implemented in a worldwide school.
Virtis Novem: there should be no american education or taliban education.  there should only be concepts such as basic human rights, taught to everyone everywhere.
Virtis Novem: get all the "good" and "right" things from today's current governments and implement/impose them on the today's current population.  it will be in place for everyone born from 2008 onward. 
Virtis Novem: let's invade everyone who disagrees!
quinnzap: you know, this is EXACTLY the sort of thing that sparks wars.
quinnzap: the concept of grand unification will piss off EVERYONE who has any trace of nationalistic or cultural pride
Virtis Novem: i agree.  but it would end wars, too, if it ever was seen to the end.
quinnzap: oh, it'll definitely end wars, because the only people left will be the last ones standing
Virtis Novem: exactly!
Virtis Novem: and why is nationalism and cultural pride a good thing anyway?  it only further separates us from them.
quinnzap: keep asking that question in public, and you're going to get into a lot of fistfights and make a lot of enemies
Virtis Novem: i remember mrs. aguilar in grade 6 sibika.  she said in the beginning of the school year that there are no wrong answers, only opinions.  later on in the year, she asked the "bright" kids in class what nationality they would want to be.
quinnzap: MRS. AGUILAAAAAR
quinnzap: heheh. i remember her.
quinnzap: go on
quinnzap: heh heh. sibika at kultura. SK. heh heh heh
Virtis Novem: having just come back from the states, and encouraged by her statement earlier in the year, i said "gusto ko maging amerikano".  it was obviously the wrong answer.    but really, i didn't mean what i said.  my nationality didn't matter at all to me, it's just that the states had a lot fewer obvious problems than the philippines did at the time.
Virtis Novem: my answer should have been what it is now.  national pride should be less important than fixing social problems on a national and global scale.
quinnzap: ah, now THIS is heresy greater even than religion.  but i heartily agree.
Virtis Novem: i just wasn't able to form that concept and sentence concretely back then. 
Virtis Novem: take black history month, for instance.  it looks good on paper.  let's celebrate the things that OUR culture has contributed to THEIR culture.
Virtis Novem: look what WE did, look how much THEY love what WE did.
Virtis Novem: it's great if all it did was educate the more ignorant among us, showing that black people are capable of great achievements.  unfortunately, it has the side effect of further separating us from them.
Virtis Novem: oh, they're black.  you know that black people did great things?  so did asians.  asians are the smartest.  but filipinos are more hard-working than koreans.
quinnzap: very, very, very true.
Virtis Novem: this is what i mean by people messing things up when they get involved. 
Virtis Novem: a lot of things are good.  the da vinci code, faith and religion, politicians and government.
quinnzap: but then who else would get involved, if not people?
Virtis Novem: the borg!
Virtis Novem: you're right, of course.  there's nobody else BUT people.  which then leads to "we're all here to define our individual values".
Virtis Novem: there is no absolute right and absolute wrong.  but i see 9/11 as wrong.  i see bin laden and saddam as wrong.
Virtis Novem: marcos was wrong.  hitler was wrong.  and even though it ended world war 2, bombing japan was wrong.
quinnzap: what happens to people who disagree with you?
Virtis Novem: bin laden doesn't see himself as wrong or evil.  like you said, everyone's just fighting for what they believe in.  hence, there's only what's right and wrong according to how i define them for myself.
Virtis Novem: well, if i were what i would define as wrong, i'd probably bomb them. 
Virtis Novem: but according to me, the right way to handle a disagreement is to try and communicate with the other party.  if communication isn't possible, try to walk away.
Virtis Novem: if only everyone thought the way i did!  i should bomb them to enlightenment.
quinnzap:
Virtis Novem: SO
Virtis Novem: for tomorrow's class: what makes you you?  what defines the consciousness of your body as you?
quinnzap: hala ka malaking gulo nanaman yan
Virtis Novem:
Virtis Novem: pilosopo!
quinnzap: pilosopozorz

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i am

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sleepy

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i recently discovered that i have tinnitus.  i asked adrienne one night if she could hear that constant high-pitched sound, and she said she couldn't.  from there, i found out that the sound persisted when i covered my ears, and that mom and dad have it too.  it's probably what has given me trouble sleeping all these years, and not insomnia.

we got back a couple days ago from a long ordeal helping mom and dad pack, load, drive, and store all their belongings.  they are now with ronald chinte in henderson, nevada.  spot is still with uncle jojo.  we spent every weekend with them for two or more months, and although i'm sad that they're gone, i'm welcoming the rest.

i don't think we'll make it to the philippines this year.  we both procrastinate badly, and our passports likely won't be issued in time for our planned trip.